I am now thankful to have never described the sky as the color of bruise! Thank you for this post. I appreciate the insight and look forward to reading more. : )
You bring up a very interesting aspect of running literary journals, and one that is worth discussing. At Orca, there were many times individual editor's or reader's favorite submissions were passed over because the rest of the staff did not agree (which may be what happened with your poems). But there were also times when editors (especially me) invoked executive privilege, and chose to publish some work without input from the staff. I suppose that's one of the things that made Orca a little different from many other journals. Zac and I had a certain aesthetic in mind and we tried to ensure it was represented in every issue.
I found it interesting that as the staff grew larger the average score (Submittable uses a 0 to 10 rating system) continued to go lower. Evidence of what you say about differences of opinion and making compromises. That's one of the reasons we kept executive privilege in place.
I also think one learns a lot from reading for a magazine. I tend to think where there is one main decisionmaker the result is a magazine with a point of view. Editorial boards, on the other hand, make compromises — not saying bad writing is favored but rather a competence that is unchallenging. As a poet whose poems were rejected by Orca, it’s hard for me to read your essay and fit my good poems into what you don’t like. But your choices were your choices. That’s really the whole of it. You like what you like. You set up a magazine to share with the world your tastes. Had anyone else received the exact same 10,000 pieces that person would have chosen differently. When I pull out the publications I have been involved with over the years I read again poems I have read many times and am happy I had the opportunity to showcase them.
I was one of the submitters whose story was rejected, but you provided constructive feedback. I rewrote the story following your suggestions and always meant to resubmit it but never did. Anyway, I’ve started a Substack called Chronicling Cancer. I hope you check it out.
Condolences, you have jumped from the lifeboat back aboard the Titanic. Your summary of the journal/editor/short fiction writer is candid and refreshing, and while I don't share Andrew Johnston's rage (below) I certainly share his frustration. If playing the Submittable Game was like losing a loved one, I am in the last stage of grief. I have watched while gatekeepers replaced the editors and writers who used to run America's literary life, then five gatekeepers replaced the original one, and now the Sorcerer's Apprentice runs the whole shebang. It is now a lottery where chance and politics determines what America reads. The true writer - the genuine artist scouring his soul for stories that matter - can only comfort himself that his work may touch a few kindred spirits in the long run (if he wins the lottery) but is ultimately just a very effective form of prayer. It balances the soul but not the bank account, and is liable to make you more antagonists than friends.
I wish you smooth sailing in your journey ahead, you certainly have paid more than your fair share of dues.
Oddly enough, the “business” of self-telling books and memoir-centric classes dominates the market. I’ve met with and spoken to seniors in memoir writing classes. I advise them to learn a few storytelling techniques, like immediacy and relevance, before writing about their life experiences.
Thank you for your honesty and dedication to the craft all these years. As an emerging writer, I was wary of reading for a literary magazine due to the time commitment, but thanks to your encouragement, I think I should.
Re FPPT: I recall Lauren Groff saying something similar in her intro to Best American 2024. Something like 90% of the stories she read were in first person.
Please keep sharing insights (and ignore the hater who wrote a painfully ironic book called empathy).
It is interesting to relate to this with the little literary magazine reading experience I have had myself—a little assuring that no, editor’s guilt simply IS part of the experience (my very first few weeks on my very first journal, the EIC remarked how we as readers shouldn’t spend more than X amount of minutes on a submission that isn’t very strong, and my jaw dropped. Seeing my expression she thought she’d reassure me with a, “That’s just a high estimate!” or something, which sent me more into a tizzy, evident as I whispered back: “I spent hours…”). While yes it has taken SO much time from me as well, there is a part of me that feels like “editor’s guilt” is a reaction to the weak parts of my own writing, like spending a little extra time reading an abysmal piece is my way of hoping for the same effort in return, one day, if for some reason I ever decide to submit my own abysmal piece of writing somewhere. Nonsensical, but not much makes sense when you’re on your 15th 20 page manuscript chock full of typos and tense errors. Anyway. Just a very interesting read for someone so new to the literary magazine world, a little grounding, a little reassuring.
Thanks, Ellie. Reading for a literary journal is so difficult because you have to balance your desire to give everyone a fair chance with the overwhelming number of submissions, many of which are clearly not ready for publication. I really like what you said about translating this over to one's own writing, wondering how someone else is going to interpret what you have submitted. One of the things we always tried to do at Orca was send encouraging personal messages to writers whose work showed promise. I don't know if that really helped people, but it did partly assuage the guilt.
Thank you; lots to think about, i.e., good prompt. 👍🏼 I was intrigued by your comment re: FPPT in that it runs counter to my experience writing/devising/creating live performance (what I spent decades doing before retirement & returning to poetry for self-expression.) Onstage, the immediacy of 1st person in the present drives the action while bringing the audience along for the ride. So that’s my default. Huh.
Different mediums, different approaches, yes: absolutely! Just remarking on how experience shapes our communication approaches… also in & of itself not news.
I suppose part of my dislike of first person present tense submissions is that I was raised in a different literary tradition. I'm working on a future post in which I try to get into more detail about this.
Oh, great! Now I’ve got “clouds like meringue” struck in my head & I suppose I’ll have to go slap myself a few times to get it out. No, no, that’s ok; it’s my own fault. Back later. I need pie.
Thanks for this candid post.
I am now thankful to have never described the sky as the color of bruise! Thank you for this post. I appreciate the insight and look forward to reading more. : )
That was fun to read and I got a lot out of it. Thanks.
You bring up a very interesting aspect of running literary journals, and one that is worth discussing. At Orca, there were many times individual editor's or reader's favorite submissions were passed over because the rest of the staff did not agree (which may be what happened with your poems). But there were also times when editors (especially me) invoked executive privilege, and chose to publish some work without input from the staff. I suppose that's one of the things that made Orca a little different from many other journals. Zac and I had a certain aesthetic in mind and we tried to ensure it was represented in every issue.
I found it interesting that as the staff grew larger the average score (Submittable uses a 0 to 10 rating system) continued to go lower. Evidence of what you say about differences of opinion and making compromises. That's one of the reasons we kept executive privilege in place.
As the victims aboard the Titanic might have said: Well, at least the view is better from up here.
Sorry to say I am not as familiar with Beckett as I ought to be.
Funny and enlightening lol
Btw “fail again, fail better” is Zadie Smith quoting Beckett
I also think one learns a lot from reading for a magazine. I tend to think where there is one main decisionmaker the result is a magazine with a point of view. Editorial boards, on the other hand, make compromises — not saying bad writing is favored but rather a competence that is unchallenging. As a poet whose poems were rejected by Orca, it’s hard for me to read your essay and fit my good poems into what you don’t like. But your choices were your choices. That’s really the whole of it. You like what you like. You set up a magazine to share with the world your tastes. Had anyone else received the exact same 10,000 pieces that person would have chosen differently. When I pull out the publications I have been involved with over the years I read again poems I have read many times and am happy I had the opportunity to showcase them.
I was one of the submitters whose story was rejected, but you provided constructive feedback. I rewrote the story following your suggestions and always meant to resubmit it but never did. Anyway, I’ve started a Substack called Chronicling Cancer. I hope you check it out.
Condolences, you have jumped from the lifeboat back aboard the Titanic. Your summary of the journal/editor/short fiction writer is candid and refreshing, and while I don't share Andrew Johnston's rage (below) I certainly share his frustration. If playing the Submittable Game was like losing a loved one, I am in the last stage of grief. I have watched while gatekeepers replaced the editors and writers who used to run America's literary life, then five gatekeepers replaced the original one, and now the Sorcerer's Apprentice runs the whole shebang. It is now a lottery where chance and politics determines what America reads. The true writer - the genuine artist scouring his soul for stories that matter - can only comfort himself that his work may touch a few kindred spirits in the long run (if he wins the lottery) but is ultimately just a very effective form of prayer. It balances the soul but not the bank account, and is liable to make you more antagonists than friends.
I wish you smooth sailing in your journey ahead, you certainly have paid more than your fair share of dues.
Ted Franco
Entitlement is a big one. If you think you have something to say about yourself, you’d better be funny and quick about it.
Something I hope I've learned over my years in the writing biz.
Oddly enough, the “business” of self-telling books and memoir-centric classes dominates the market. I’ve met with and spoken to seniors in memoir writing classes. I advise them to learn a few storytelling techniques, like immediacy and relevance, before writing about their life experiences.
Thank you for your honesty and dedication to the craft all these years. As an emerging writer, I was wary of reading for a literary magazine due to the time commitment, but thanks to your encouragement, I think I should.
Re FPPT: I recall Lauren Groff saying something similar in her intro to Best American 2024. Something like 90% of the stories she read were in first person.
Please keep sharing insights (and ignore the hater who wrote a painfully ironic book called empathy).
Thanks. I hadn't seen the Lauren Groff comment. I'll have to look it up. As for the haters, they come with the territory.
It is interesting to relate to this with the little literary magazine reading experience I have had myself—a little assuring that no, editor’s guilt simply IS part of the experience (my very first few weeks on my very first journal, the EIC remarked how we as readers shouldn’t spend more than X amount of minutes on a submission that isn’t very strong, and my jaw dropped. Seeing my expression she thought she’d reassure me with a, “That’s just a high estimate!” or something, which sent me more into a tizzy, evident as I whispered back: “I spent hours…”). While yes it has taken SO much time from me as well, there is a part of me that feels like “editor’s guilt” is a reaction to the weak parts of my own writing, like spending a little extra time reading an abysmal piece is my way of hoping for the same effort in return, one day, if for some reason I ever decide to submit my own abysmal piece of writing somewhere. Nonsensical, but not much makes sense when you’re on your 15th 20 page manuscript chock full of typos and tense errors. Anyway. Just a very interesting read for someone so new to the literary magazine world, a little grounding, a little reassuring.
Thanks, Ellie. Reading for a literary journal is so difficult because you have to balance your desire to give everyone a fair chance with the overwhelming number of submissions, many of which are clearly not ready for publication. I really like what you said about translating this over to one's own writing, wondering how someone else is going to interpret what you have submitted. One of the things we always tried to do at Orca was send encouraging personal messages to writers whose work showed promise. I don't know if that really helped people, but it did partly assuage the guilt.
Thank you; lots to think about, i.e., good prompt. 👍🏼 I was intrigued by your comment re: FPPT in that it runs counter to my experience writing/devising/creating live performance (what I spent decades doing before retirement & returning to poetry for self-expression.) Onstage, the immediacy of 1st person in the present drives the action while bringing the audience along for the ride. So that’s my default. Huh.
Different mediums, different approaches, yes: absolutely! Just remarking on how experience shapes our communication approaches… also in & of itself not news.
Thanks again for the ruminating!
I suppose part of my dislike of first person present tense submissions is that I was raised in a different literary tradition. I'm working on a future post in which I try to get into more detail about this.
Looking forward to it!
p.s. How do you feel about skies the color of plums? Are you OK with skies to color of plums? Or would nectarines be preferable? Thanks!
I could go for a nectarine sky. Maybe prunes too.
Oh, great! Now I’ve got “clouds like meringue” struck in my head & I suppose I’ll have to go slap myself a few times to get it out. No, no, that’s ok; it’s my own fault. Back later. I need pie.